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<h2>Information</h2>

<ul>
<li>Date: 31 August 2011, 17:00-19:00 UTC</li>
<li><ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="2011-08-31+Meeting+Agenda" /><ac:link-body>Agenda</ac:link-body></ac:link></li>
<li>Moderator: Pieter Kokx (nickname kokx)</li>
</ul>

<h2>Summary</h2>

<h3>Modules</h3>

<p>This discussion was informed by the <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="RFC - ZF2 Modules" /><ac:link-body>RFC on Modules</ac:link-body></ac:link>.</p>

<p>The first portion of the meeting was a heated discussion about the definition of a module. Over the course of the conversation, we determined we needed to define several concepts, but principally "component" and "module". The consensus in the end were the following definitions:</p>

<ul>
<li>A <strong>Component</strong> is one or more classes that address a specific problem.</li>
<li>A <strong>Library</strong> is a collection of components.</li>
<li>A <strong>Module</strong> is a set of standalone functionality that defines and/or consumes components, and optionally contains configuration and/or publically servable resources. As rdohms put it, a "module is a composition of components, templates, assets, controllers, and entities that compose a functional part of an application"</li>
<li>An <strong>Application</strong> is a collection of modules, libraries, and components.</li>
</ul>

<p>There was general consensus on the above definitions, although not 100% agreement. We will discuss the definitions further on the list, as well as try and iron out the issues identified already in the RFC.</p>

<h3>Distribution</h3>

<p>This discussion was informed by the <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="RFC - What will the ZF2 distribution include?" /><ac:link-body>RFC on Distribution</ac:link-body></ac:link>.</p>

<p>Matthew outlined votes on the list surrounding the various questioned categorizations, and opened the floor for discussion. </p>

<p>First, there were some questions about what purposes the categories served. The answers were:</p>

<ul>
<li>They could serve as "meta-packages" for distribution: fetch "core", and you get all the classes under that; etc.</li>
<li>From these, we can then choose which categories might compose a "standard" distribution, vs. a "full" distribution.</li>
<li>Knowing what might be part of the "standard" distribution, we can then determine what work needs to be done to call the framework "stable" for the purposes of release.</li>
</ul>

<p>Over the discussion, we agreed on the following categories:</p>

<ul>
<li>Core (basic, standalone functionality)</li>
<li>DB/Data Formats (DB, serialization, dom, etc.)</li>
<li>Security (authentication, authorization, identity)</li>
<li>i18n/l10n</li>
<li>MVC (controller, view, potentially "model-ish" interfaces)</li>
<li>everything else (services, queue, cloud, etc.)
<ul>
<li>these would likely need categorization as well, but we don't need to define them quite yet</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>

<p>The standard distribution would include:</p>

<ul>
<li>Core</li>
<li>DB/Data Formats</li>
<li>Security</li>
<li>i18n/l10n</li>
<li>MVC</li>
</ul>

<p>and the full distribution would encompass standard and everything else.</p>

<p>For purposes of stability, finishing up work on the standard distribution would suffice. Any additional functionality that is incomplete would be dropped for the initial release.</p>

<p>We also discussed how distribution of both the framework and modules might be accomplished. The Zend team already had plans to evaluate both Pyrus and phar. Seldaek (Jordi Boggiano) joined the meeting to bring our attention to a project he has developed, <a href="http://packagist.org/about">Composer</a>; we agreed to evaluate that for our needs as well.</p>

<h3>Timeframes</h3>

<p>Matthew suggested that having a release of some sort for ZendCon would be good in terms of PR and getting some mindshare and testing around ZF2, and asked what stability we might want to aim for. While initially calling out "beta", consensus was that we don't want to lock down the API that soon, nor restrict what components might stabilize in that time frame; "alpha" would be much better. As Akrabat (Rob Allen) pointed out, development snapshots "are 'please play with this new bit' releases", and "alpha should allow us to show off building a website", while kokx (Pieter Kokx) notes that "a beta implies that its already workable and that should not give too many problems when going to the final version." As such, and alpha would make a good splash, while giving us flexibility to change the API as we get more feedback from users.</p>

<h2>Log</h2>

<table><tbody>
<tr>
<th><p> Timestamp </p></th>
<th><p> Name </p></th>
<th><p> Log </p></th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:11 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Let's begin! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:12 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> oh, and paddy wants to tell us that you all should behave </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:23 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, oh <ac:emoticon ac:name="sad" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:26 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» rdohms starts running </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:36 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> <sub>_</sub> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:37 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, take it away. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> We've had a request to start with modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:44 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:48 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> if I may.. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:02:53 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: kick it! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:03:04 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> exactly, lets start! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:03:11 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms, nah, if he kicks everyone, nobody can discuss <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:03:36 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> regarding module themselves, I can't help much, but regarding distribution of said modules I'd like to present Composer as an option that wasn't considered before - </p>
<a class="external-link" href="https://github.com/composer">https://github.com/composer</a>
<p /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:03:57 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> modules, does someone want to start on that? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:06 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, I believe Seldaek has. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:08 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> more human readable things are available on </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://packagist.org/about">http://packagist.org/about</a>
<p> if you want a quick glance at the package manifest (a json file) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:34 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, the discussion today isn't really around packaging and distribution so much as what a module <em>is</em> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:41 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: regarding the first uncertain item of ZF2 Modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:51 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> I have a question that would like to be discussed </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:54 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> but, I'll note it for a future discussion/thread. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:59 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: alright, sorry aobut that <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:04:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, go for it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, no worries, and thanks for bringing it up! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:11 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td> <a class="external-link" href="http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/RFC+-+ZF2+Modules">http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/RFC+-+ZF2+Modules</a> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:12 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> at the same time that a Module must have config to be merged in app </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:23 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> we also need a module config that shouldn't be merged </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:33 </p></td>
<td><p> bergelmir </p></td>
<td><p> PHP: composer.json, Node.js: package.jso </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:39 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, example? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:05:47 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: I just wanted to raise attention to this because it's likely gonna be used by Sf2, phpbb.next, and I'm gonna talk with t3rob about TYPO3 v5 soon I hope </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:07 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> Sure... A resource instantiation for multiple subdomains that connects to DB </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:08 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: so having ZF on board too would be amazing </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:11 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: we will be discussing Distribution later today, so you should raise it again then <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:28 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ok folks, can we step back here </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:34 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> You shouldn't connect to ALL db defined in all modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:34 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: yeah I'm just not sure I'll be able to stick around long enough, I'll shut up now <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:35 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> First thing on the agenda is what is a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:38 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> just to the requested one </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:06:50 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> can we discuss that? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:07:07 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> I agree with StormTide, we first should determine the semantics of a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:07:33 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> i'll start if thats ok to kokx :0 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:07:36 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, StormTide, I think guilhermeblanco is trying to elaborate on a specific of that document. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:07:45 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: is this example valid to you? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:07:47 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, we'll get to config </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, yes, but it's a specific detail of configuration. Bring it up in a bit. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:18 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, you have the floor </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:27 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> i'd like to back up a bit further actually real quick </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:35 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, i yeild </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:36 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> should 3rd party modules be editable </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:42 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> i'd argue no </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:08:51 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, agreed </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:02 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: editable? what do you mean with 'editable' ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:02 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: imho, no. It's like trying to edit a phar file. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:09 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> +1 kokx </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:18 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> +1 kokx </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:27 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> +1 kokx </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:28 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> +1 DASPRiD </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:44 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: meaning- you download a module, and there is zero expectation that you alter it in any way shape or form </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:44 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield, don't start a recursion here <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:45 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: do you mean editing the files? or do you mean 'extending' parts of the module ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:09:52 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> i.e., you don't "patch" it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:03 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> what is a module: I'm suggesting we use the name 'component', and that it is a package of code and resources </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> i'd argue the mode of tweaking a module would be by overriding </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:22 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: which brings us back to #1 - what is a module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:23 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> that component could inject code into any part of the system, or override any file or resource system-wide </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:26 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, I would expect that if you want to alter behaviour, you do so by overriding config in your app config file, or extending classes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:31 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: I don't get why you wouldn't want to allow patching of modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:44 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: how do you upgrade a patched module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:47 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, does that also include public files? (css, images, js…) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:52 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:56 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> lubs: apply the patch ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:57 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> +1 on not editable, config changes would happen in application config, 3rd party modules are "vendor" </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:10:59 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> well, if configurations become shipped within a module (or js, views, etc), they there needs to be an infrastructure in place to allow overriding </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:04 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> a template, theme, library, etc could all be a component </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:09 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> +1 rdohms </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:19 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> i would say; override not patch </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:41 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> lubs: override but not in module code, in your own application/bundle </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:43 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, why do you want to change the name from module to component? It seems this bleeds into what we consider "components" w/in the ZF distribution already, and those do <em>not</em> contain things like configuration and public resources. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:51 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Why is the term "module" not okay? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:11:53 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I use array_replace_recursive() on my php-array configs - overriding defaults with local server specifics. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:05 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> lubs: how would you be able to collaborate on a module then? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:13 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> A module would be a group of processes(USer management for ex) I don't belive it should be seen has a component... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:19 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, for clarity from the 'model' which is close to 'module' and google confusion </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:20 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: It hurts me that few people read my 3 posts about that on ML. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:31 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> components are not 'the model part of zf' in my mind </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:37 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> lubs: in my head, modules could be opensource projects </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:56 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: which gets us back to point #1 that we decided to not discuss <strong>again</strong>. What is a module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:12:56 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> i so no reason against naming them "modules" </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:03 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Is a module a collection of components? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, but then we introduce a new issue of convoluting components in the distro with 3rd party code </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:19 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, potentially yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:22 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: It could be. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:25 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> A module is a collection of code and resources </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:30 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> I'd like that one </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:33 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:37 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:38 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Do we have 2 separate ways to distribute: components vs modules ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:42 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, i dont see a distinction between zend code and community code for components other than the naming convention, which we'll get to </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:13:54 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: Adding onto that "… that relates to each other"? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:05 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, except that zend code doesn't contain configuration files or public assets. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:06 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> rizza, sure </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:12 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I already noted that distinction. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:13 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> component: fully functional piece of a application, that can be plugge into any other application and tweaked by config </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:13 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, it could <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:16 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> rizza, a module with resources which have nothing to do with the code would be useless </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:26 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> By definition, a module is a set of units that together build something, which can be from a furniture to an app </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:28 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> There is a more "puristic" approach: a "module" is the only term and a "module" can contain just a single php file with 1 single class. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:35 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, why limit zend's module stuff, im sure they'd love a nice zfw component for zend server </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:37 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> includeing or not: services, templates, assets, entities etc.. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:40 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> and we'd love to use it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:47 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: I know, just pre-empting the distinction before someone asks. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:14:55 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> heh </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:16 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> so using the concept, a module can consume components, services, models, entities, assets and controllers to build a piece of an application, considering an application is a set of modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:21 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, we're not limiting – I'm just trying to figure out why you want to change a term well-known in ZF already (whether or not the functionality works well) at this time </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:30 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:33 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> A thought: "Application module" </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:35 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:39 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, im trying to define a new concept, so i think a new name is clearer. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:44 </p></td>
<td><p> mikaelkael </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:50 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:52 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: I have the idea that some people want to go closer to the idea of Sf2's Bundles </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:53 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> a module should function on its own, where as a component provides functionality .. fi that makes sense to everyone </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:54 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> modules will get confused with the common modular directory structure of v1 days </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:15:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, I'd argue that's off-topic, then. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:02 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> and with model which will still exist </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:04 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> +1 rdohms </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:10 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, -1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:13 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:16 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:17 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> a library is made of up components, an application is made up of modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:27 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Wait wait... what does "function on its own" mean? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:31 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> +1 ralphschindler </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:31 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, whats the distinction between a library and a component? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:33 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:35 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> A module provdes functionality too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:41 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> regardning component, it's a set of units that have an specific purpose, but cannot behave alone. It's like a chair feet. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:44 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: a component is a part of the library </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:47 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> if my component overrides zend\db, then what </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:49 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>a library</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:51 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, a library is a collection of components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:55 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> He already said that. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:16:56 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: then its probably called My\Db ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:10 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: I'd like to see the clarification of that as well. (re: rdohms comment) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:15 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, hardly. what if i define another adapter for zend\db as part of my <em>whatever</em> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:15 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, then it's a component that overrides zend\db. What's confusing ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:16 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> This talk is ... Are we talking about modules or components ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:16 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> \Zend\Db\Adapter\SuperRecentFoobar ---- component or a module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:30 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> crash82: both </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:31 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> crash82, modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:31 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> this is why im freakin confused as to what we're calling things </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:31 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://ralphschindler.com/2009/05/24/php-environments-libraries-and-applications-oh-my">http://ralphschindler.com/2009/05/24/php-environments-libraries-and-applications-oh-my</a>
<p> <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:34 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, adapter :-p </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:34 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> so component and library are the same. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:40 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: ROTFL </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:46 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, no <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:53 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Need I remind you ... it's external... 3rd party ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:56 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, ZF is a library, Zend\Db is a component </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:17:56 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> you can see the summary at the bottom </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:01 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> component == package of code and resoruces. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:02 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> made by RecentFooBarCorp </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:04 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> thats my definition </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:18 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: adapter provided by a module would be my call </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:19 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: ZF is a component too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:24 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, that also matches an application, which is a package of code and resources </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:30 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> because it has no purpose used standalone </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:30 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> so your application is a component? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:34 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, exactly </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:44 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, i think a cms could be dropped in as a 'component' for example </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:48 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> in that case, component fits almost anything </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:50 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> So can we have an edge scenario: module = (1) component ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:51 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> I expect a module to be a resource that adds to the end-user experience. I expect a component to provide functionality to developers. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:56 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: I see that more as a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:18:58 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, exactly what im getting at </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:00 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, so it's ambigious </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:00 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: No. Because your application can live standalone </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:01 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> core->components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:05 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Okay, I propose the following so we can move on: Component == set of classes that address a specific task or problem area. Library == collection of components. Module == set of standalone functionality that incorporates or defines components, optionally configuration and public resources. Application == collection of modules. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:05 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> I don't think we are going to reach a consensus today on a definition of modules and components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:21 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:24 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:33 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:34 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: 100% </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:37 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ok then </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:37 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:38 </p></td>
<td><p> weaverryan </p></td>
<td><p> big +1 fwiw <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:39 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> modules it is </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:40 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 (it's in line with our definitions historically speaking) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:44 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> -1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:54 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> because we then need to discuss modules AND components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:19:56 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> separately </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:06 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> architecture, namespaces, distribution etc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, we'll just discuss modules today, as that's on the agenda. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:20 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: only if we define them this way </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:30 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, has a point </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:31 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, votes indicate that's the consensus. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:32 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> why do we need two </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:37 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> why is a component different than a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:44 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: read the recap </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:47 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:49 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> We just voted on this. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:50 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> in the link above </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:53 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> \Zend\Captcha\Adapter\LazyEye ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:54 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> a module could provide a component and/or consume components. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:56 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: yes. A module can live standalone, a component not </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:20:57 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, i understand the terming, but why? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:02 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Module "LazyEye Captcha" ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:08 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, a moduel is something a use can install and he can use it. a component is something a programmer needs </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:15 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> *a user </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:20 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> please ArturBodera, let it go, we just voted on this </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:24 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> lets move on </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:25 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, we've not come to installation yet, </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:29 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:31 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> I suggest we move on </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:37 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> but ok </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:38 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> yeah lets move on </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:40 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> 'modules' it is </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:44 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, considering specifics of the RFC.... </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:45 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> doesnt matter what we call em </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:48 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> should we talk about the RFC of Akrabat</p></td>
<td><p>away ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:21:48 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> just we need to agree </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:10 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> one thing I mentioned on the list is: perhaps one solution to the configuration issue would be to add import functionality to Zend\Config. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:15 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> /s/components/modules in my mind. (why we need components now im not sure, but whatever) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:24 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: +1 </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:26 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, would that potentially solve what you describe? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:36 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: hm... yes and no </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:39 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, -1 to import </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:42 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> we have 2 situations here </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:46 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> we need to 'get to' config </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:53 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> 1- We need to merge (otherwise routing would fail) </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:57 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> "Should Zend MVC be a module?" </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:22:59 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> next on the list </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:05 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> array_merge_recursive() folks </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:14 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> 2- We can't merge, otherwise it'd bootstrap DBs unecessarily </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:16 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, that's not on the list. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:23 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: why you don't want import? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:23 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td> <a class="external-link" href="http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/2011-08-31+Meeting+Agenda">http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/2011-08-31+Meeting+Agenda</a> </td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:24 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, array_replace_recursive, please </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:33 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, i didnt add it </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:37 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: that doesn't account for ordering, and that doesn't account for things that have to be merged vs things that have to be replaced </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:37 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: yeah, my bad, a typo <ac:emoticon ac:name="laugh" /> </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:38 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, import imports a configuration in place, and then merges. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:41 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: its a clearly a component in that definition, and its not on the agenda either </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:42 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> its on the list tho </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:49 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, its a component? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:50 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> wtf </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:52 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> im confused now </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:23:58 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: it's not a component.. MVC = module </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:04 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> core->modules->components </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:05 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> so the question here is, are multiple sources of configurations managed as multiple named entities, or a singular hierachical entity within a given runtime </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:15 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: in which situation it wouldn't call import then? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:16 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, ArturBodera you're getting ahead of the discussion. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:24 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, you've jumped to config </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:27 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, i'd vote vor multiple entities </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:31 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, "Should Zend MVC be a module?" good question since it's a group of components and has specific usage </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:32 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> which is like 8 down the list </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:34 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, well, you could place overrides <em>after</em> the import, which would ensure the overrides occur. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:44 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> we have an agenda </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:24:57 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> +1 StormTide </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:12 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: sorry, I still didn't get the whole picture </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:12 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> I don't think we've made it through the "What is a module" list yet </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:16 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: +1 </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:19 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:25 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> i guess you're right </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:37 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> I can see the value of import, but I can't see how it would act for bootstrap only to be loaded module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:45 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: will import act on specifics? or the whole file? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:49 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> <strong>bangs head on desk</strong> ... what is a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:25:59 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> poor desk <ac:emoticon ac:name="sad" /> </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:00 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> cuz clearly we're not agreed </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:01 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, maybe I'm not understanding the whole situation you're describing. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:05 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms, the whole file. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:14 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> but... it could potentially grab just a sub tree out of it. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:18 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I've seen both approaches. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:41 </p></td>
<td><p> weaverryan </p></td>
<td><p> but if you can import, then you can separate the pieces into different files, only import what you need </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:46 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: under certain situations, I just want to bootstrap resources of a module IF the module is the "to be loaded" one </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:46 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: module is a composition of compoenents, templates, assets, controllers entities that compose a functional part of an application </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:47 </p></td>
<td><p> weaverryan </p></td>
<td><p> just like separating templates into smaller pieces </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:49 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» ArturBodera rolls eyes and waits for folks to figure out array_replace_recursive() so we can move to "what is a module" again <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:52 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> that's my need </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:56 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms, +1 to that </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:26:57 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, ah, right </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:03 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> too specific to discuss right now. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:16 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: not really. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:23 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> everyone agree with the rdohms's module definition? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:30 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: that is what was described .. being all those piece optional.. so oyu might not have any templates, or not have controllers.. so forth </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:35 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> If you define that application bootstraps all modules... we're messed then </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:39 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:40 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> So fragmented... </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:41 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> that's how ZF1 does currently </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:43 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:46 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Can Zend\Config has a good merge capabilities + ordering ? would that solve each case ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:48 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:55 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ok, so if we're agreed on that definition </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:27:59 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> "is mvc a module" </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:02 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: we can have the "how does a module differ from a component" on the mailing list, i think most people here understand the differences </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:40 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, it could be. I think it would be better to have it as a metapackage for distribution. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> (thats a huge question of architecture fyi) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: Zend\Config would partially solve the issue. Dependency between modules would only be solved by the introduce of a DAG </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> Could we just do one discussion at a time? I see two different discussions in here right now </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, it goes to the architecture which we're working out here </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: a module is a Blog or Forum, and Zend MVC is a component </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:55 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, is mvc a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:56 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> That allows it to be installed at system-level if desired. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:28:59 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, now we're getting somewhere.... ok meta-module, containing other modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:29:18 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:29:19 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> ok, in other words, its not is_a here, its has_a </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:29:20 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> works for me </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:29:37 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> MVC = meta-module that defines dependencies on several other modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:29:38 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, no, set of components on which modules might be built. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:29:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> omg </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:05 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, ugh component confusion again </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:10 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> modules can be MVC enabled (or not), components cannot be MVC enabled </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:12 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ok take router </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:14 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, what I meant by meta-package is in terms of the distribution mechanism – in Pyrus, bundles (which basically define sets of packages to install) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:16 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> it has ties to dipatcher </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:25 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> it has ties to other things </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:25 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, it doesn't </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:30 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> router is a module right/ </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:32 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:34 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> mvc is a meta-module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:36 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> router is a component </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:39 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> NO </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:41 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:43 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ugh, wtf is a component </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:45 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:30:51 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> really StormTide ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:04 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, I defined it above. One or more classes that solve a discrete problem </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:05 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, Zend\Db, Zend\Router, Zend\Controller, all those are components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:15 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: Component == set of classes that address a specific task or problem area </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:21 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I'd vote for component = module to clear up distribution nomenclature. I.e. I install FooBarAdapter module to have FooBar adapter (which is a php class) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:22 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, really, because in everything ive tried to propose theres no distinction between a module/component/whateveryouwantotcallit </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:24 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> component is still as defined in ZF1? Zend\Xxx </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:30 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> why would we package two separate things </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:35 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, -1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:37 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:46 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, riht </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:51 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, why cant that be done as a module in itself </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> zf install foobar ---- does it install a component or a module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:58 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> how do i override a component from a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:31:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, we've defined it here. If you're having trouble, ask on the list for a clarification. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:07 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> Zend* = component and Application\Quickstart = module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:12 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> im not the one having trouble imo </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:25 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> The votes disagree with you. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:30 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, do you understand what i've proposed </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:44 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> or are we still off in 'what the hell is kevin on about' land </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:51 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Frankly, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:51 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> \o/ stupid network </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:32:57 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms definition of a module as "a composition of compoenents, templates, assets, controllers entities that compose a functional part of an application" seems to naturally follow on </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:31 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> right, a module can deliver components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:32 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, im saying we only need one, super module concept, and <em>everything</em> can go in that architecture </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:32 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> #zf install foobar (does it install a module or component with name "foobar"?) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:40 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> components, resources, whatever else </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:44 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ok, we are basically discussing this for about 30 minutes now, 15 minutes over time, I think its better to move on and discuss the distribution and continue this discussion on a later meeting, or on the ML </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:46 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> its all modules to me </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:33:56 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, components <strong>can</strong> be part of a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:10 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> that doesn't mean that module === component </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:14 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, so how is mvc a meta-module without sum-modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:19 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> sub even </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:23 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: +1 that makes sense </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:24 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> mvc is a meta-package </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:29 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: I understand your issue. We have it here too. But a module can contain components too, in ZF1 structure it's impossible without having to implement your own startMvc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:42 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> obvious question: is every component supplied by ZF2 part of a module? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:43 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, I see a finer-grained distinction between modules and components. I think a module can contain components, sure, but the individual components of the Zf library stand alone, and can be used with or without a concept of modules. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:46 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> a module is just a container </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:47 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://pastebin.com/Rw5Fq65b">http://pastebin.com/Rw5Fq65b</a>
<p /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:50 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, yes, zf1 is totally fubar in this regard and its what im trying to address </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:53 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: but what you didn't get is that a module contains compoenents </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:34:58 </p></td>
<td><p> crash82 </p></td>
<td><p> better description adding to the one from rdohms A module also is a logical part to the end user </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:04 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, aha, ok thats what im getting at </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:04 </p></td>
<td><p> Xerkus </p></td>
<td><p> i don't care how we will call it. we wasting time </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:07 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: it was already adressed by this new definition </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:11 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> components cannot have templates/config files/ </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:15 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, i want a core and modular architecture as STANDARD </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:23 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> for zf2 going forward </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:28 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> not zf1+modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:28 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> it can offer classes/objects to be used to build services/controllers etc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:33 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: Nice summary. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:47 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> thanks rizza , I'm sure there is more though </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:49 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> throw out the idea of the library and application contexts </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:50 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> new subject? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:35:58 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> what would zf2 look like if it were a minimal core that could load modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:11 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler's summary +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:13 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> and modules were things like router/dispatcher </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:14 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> etc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:16 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: you didn't touch distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:21 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> mvc was a meta-module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:25 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> zform was a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:25 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> etc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:29 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: we are not discussing distribution yet </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:35 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>sorry ArturBodera I meant</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:40 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: distribution really doesn't matter in terms of definition </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:40 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, meta-package </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:41 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: defining a component or module is not dependent on how its distributed </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:51 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: whats is the subject? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:58 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: currently, still modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:36:59 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: it is.... in one case. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:02 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, in my mind, module is simply a collection of code and resources </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> When you use terms like pyrus meta-package. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:13 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> but I suggest that we move on to distribution, because this is getting nowhere </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:16 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> theres no distinction between packages/components/bundles/meta wahtever </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:18 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> meta-package consisting of ..... modules? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:24 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> thanks kokx... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:27 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Can we move on, please? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:33 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, if we move on, we've decided something, and probably fubar'd it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:36 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> +1 weierophinney </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:44 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: we didn't decide on anything yet </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:49 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> lets let kokx give us a summary and direction ===== </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:55 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, we cant define packaging until we know what the hell a module is </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:57 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> and i still dont know </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:37:59 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» ArturBodera hails to kokx </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:00 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> thats why I'm moving on, because it isn't getting anywhere anyways </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:10 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: moderate <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:11 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> this is a blocker to me </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:14 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I'd like to interject here, please. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:21 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> go ahead weierophinney </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:23 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, you have the floor </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:31 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, ArturBodera, the two of you seem to be the only ones who have a problem with the definitions. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:47 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> i suggest modules/components need to be addressed in the ML again, and be back up on the agenda next week for final voting or so </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:52 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Several of us have outlined a consistent idea of the differences between components and modules. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:58 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> and move on plase </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:38:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> and there have been a lot of +1's for those. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:12 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I think we should take those as the definitions and move on. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:19 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:21 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:25 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:25 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: just to recap... will we have container for modules? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:27 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> 17:40 UTC </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:28 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:31 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:33 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> can i respond to that </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:39:39 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> like a module containing modules? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:02 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, you mean like, submodules? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:08 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:09 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ok, so ralphschindler made a nice simple summary of the definition for us: </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://pastebin.com/Rw5Fq65b">http://pastebin.com/Rw5Fq65b</a>
<p /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:14 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:17 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>definitions</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:17 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, we could potentially add that as a requirement. I think making amodule dependent on another might make more sense. I see no problems with submodules in practice, though. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:23 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, iirc that was addresses, and there can be an unlimited depth </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:35 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: -1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:37 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> and I suggest we move on to Distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:51 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kk, let me update the page with the vote tally – I have it ready. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:40:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> (re: distribution, that is) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:41:26 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: you created an RFC for that, so do you want to start? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:41:29 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> your <span style="text-decoration: underline;">1's reflect zero discussion of the architectural idea, but define what we have currently as zf1 + modules. You're trying to make a determination on my architectural concepts by setting a definition in but a few lines. If we define zfw2 as zf1 components</span> user modules. We've defined something. Its not what I envision <em>at all</em> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:41:40 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: ok. Because there can be "private" modules that only have some functionality and could be seen inside of that module. It's like the visibility of classes inside a namespace that unfortunately, PHP does not support. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:42:01 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> If theres no interest in discussing a core->module architecture, fine, i'll give up and go away </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:42:22 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> but i think we're going to lose a lot of potential for what zf2 could have been </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:42:38 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: please, drop it, we're discussing Distribution now </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:42:54 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> whatever. best luck. im out. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:43:02 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> regarding distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:43:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide: we need to have a longer discussion in the mailing list so that we can share our vision of these definitions in a way that you can clearly see what we're talking about </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:43:19 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:43:20 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> its clear we're not seeing the same vision </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:43:25 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:00 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> Re Distribution. I'd rather prefer a per need component than include components that applications might never use, like filter, validator, db </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:03 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide, to be honest, I've asked for concrete proposals/RFCs from you about your vision numerous times. To bring up differences in this forum makes it very hard to discuss. We have concrete definitions out there for the terminology we're using. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:19 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, that's the plan, to an extent. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:31 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: but you marked these component as core ones </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:37 </p></td>
<td><p> zfran </p></td>
<td><p> guys, sorry to interrupt, but it might be a good idea to write where the irc meetings happen in the wiki for those of us who don't hung out here frequently. I found in which channel it was through a Google+ post. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:42 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> We're investigating Pyrus, and ralphschindler and I are going to play with ways we can package components individually this week and next. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:44:52 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> zfran, it <strong>is</strong> in the wiki. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:05 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td> <a class="external-link" href="http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/IRC+Meetings">http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/IRC+Meetings</a> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:06 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, the ones on the list are really broad categories. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:06 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, ive shared what I have on the ml's, as requested. Then you go and define things get a few +1's and move on. fine. But I don't feel ive been heard out, and i think we're moving ahead anyway. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:12 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: so, may I come back to composer now? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:14 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: that's a good way to go. But is Pyrus mature enough for that... I'm not 100% sure on this </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:21 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, give us a few minutes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> sure </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:30 </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide </p></td>
<td><p> so best luck, i'm going to sod off now. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:42 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: <strong>like a broken record</strong> are you also researching ways of distributing "modules" (in recent nomenclature) ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:47 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, It's very stable, just missing a few features before they want to call it that. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:45:54 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, yes, give me a sec. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:46:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, the idea behind the groupings is thus: </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:46:19 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>first, to define what we need to finish to call ZF2 "stable"</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:46:21 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: I think we discussed briefly last meeting about coming up with a platform that would be kind of like symfony2bundles.org </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:46:24 </p></td>
<td><p> zfran </p></td>
<td><p> doh, sorry, didn't look in the main irc meeting page <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" />. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:46:37 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> But with actual installation. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:46:40 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>second, to define "metapackages" that can be installed in one lump – either via a package distribution or compiled packages.</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:47:07 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, the main thing right now is determining where various components listed should sit. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:47:21 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I'll sum up votes I saw on the list here for the ones marked as questions </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:47:49 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Memory: votes for both core and extras (I think both PDF and Search use it, though, which may nudge to core)</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:00 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>ACL/Auth/Identity: votes for core</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:06 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>i18n/l10n: votes for core</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>queue: votes for extensions</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:30 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>JS: votes for extensions</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:36 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> are you also counting counter-votes ("no" votes) ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:40 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>debug: voted mostly for core.</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:48:58 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, yes – most of these have votes in both directions; I'm summarizing the direction </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:49:03 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I'll post votes when done </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:49:08 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Wildfire: extras </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:49:19 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Tool: undecided – either core or mvc</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:49:26 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Mail: core</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:49:29 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ALSO </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:49:56 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> StormTide proposed a "DB" or "Data Formats" category that could include DB, Json, DOM, and Session </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:14 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: we're able to vote on ML or somewhere else? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:15 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Alessandro P proposed a Dev/Debug category for Debug, Testing, tool, and wildfire </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:28 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, it was on the ML – I'm summarizing, so we can discuss </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:30 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, isn't Zend\Json used by some core components already? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:33 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: do we need categories? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:53 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Finally, Matthew C suggested a security category for acl, auth, ident, and potentially form; StormTide seconded. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:50:58 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> JSON - imo should be under something like Zend\Serializer\Json (then replace Json w/ Php, Bson, etc) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:16 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, the idea is to make it easy to pick and choose suites of functionality, as well as to determine what we need to finish to go stable. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:22 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I hate to say this: what's the difference between a category and a meta-package? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:23 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> lubs, agreed. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:31 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, basically the same. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:43 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> so... opening the floor for discusssion. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:45 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ok - so not another way to slice and dice </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:47 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> lubs: it's not always "serializing". It might be used for other tasks, hence "Formats\" might fit better. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:47 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: sorry to push this, but I have to run soon, and this kinda relates to the discussion at hand. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:51:55 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, go for it. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:52:17 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> (and it sounds like ralphschindler and I should add composer to our list of things to investigate) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:52:36 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: for some things; I agree... but in PHP you have two items with bson / json - encode / decode. its practically the same as base64 (encode</p></td>
<td><p>decode) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:52:49 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: with composer (reminder: </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://github.com/composer">http://github.com/composer</a>
<p> or </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://packagist.org/about">http://packagist.org/about</a>
<p> ) - you'd basically start with setting up your composer.json (this could be anything else though if you want to handle configuration of it differently), saying your application requires packages X, Y, Z </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:52:59 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: so download by distribution, category, and component? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:03 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: if you pick ACL, and ACL depends on Auth, it brings it along with it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:12 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: could you start at the beginning, as in, what is Composer? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:20 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: fair enough <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:27 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, download a specific component, a category, or the full distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:32 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> because I'm pretty sure that not everyone here is familiar with it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:44 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> alright mtg time - will catch up later and respond more in the ML. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:53:51 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, i'd guess that it is something like pyrus <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:00 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: it's basically been naderman (of phpbb fame) and me working on this for a few months now. We have a dependency solver in place and basic installer etc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:15 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: don't know naderman either <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:23 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: that's a person<ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:27 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: And so it's a package manager? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:31 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> i thought it's a bot <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:39 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: it is something like Pyrus/PEAR, but more inspired from npm/bundler than PEAR </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:48 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> I thought it would be the drop-in for Zend\Magic 2.0 <ac:emoticon ac:name="laugh" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:54:59 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> I love npm… so I think it'd be worthwhile investigating just based on that. <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:55:02 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: ok, thanks <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:55:06 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, can it do metapackages (packages that simply point to groups of other packages and versions)? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:55:08 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, no, that was Zend\PackageManager <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:55:11 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> bundler for ruby? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:55:17 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:55:40 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: well, nothing prevents you from having a package that's empty and just defines dependencies to other packages </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:56:12 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> but imo this is not necessary </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:56:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> that's what I was getting at, thanks! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:56:34 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, it sounds like we have a third option to investigate for actual distribution. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:56:47 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, anything else you want to discuss? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:03 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: can you download multiple version of the same package? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:06 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> well, I don't know, I don't want to do a sales pitch but if you got questions I'm happy to answer them </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:14 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, see intiilapa's question. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:21 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> That's important to a number of folks. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:26 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> es </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:28 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> i.e., parallel versions. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:29 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> +y </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:31 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: afaik (would have to check with naderman), the dependency solver can handle it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:51 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> however, it doesn't work with systemwide installs by default like pear does </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:57:58 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ah, okay. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:05 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> so you handle your deps per project, and therefore have less needs for multiple versions </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:07 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> that changes a lot of things <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:10 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> I like the idea of that <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:12 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> we'll ping you with additional questoins, then. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:17 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> I like it too <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:17 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Me too. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:26 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> ² </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I'm in the "one global install" camp </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:39 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, we seem to have folks wanting both styles – what you describe suits me, but Akrabat and StormTide have argued for system-wide. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:47 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> and I see some compelling cases. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:58:56 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I prefer localized installations, better for VCS, cleaniness, shared env etc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:02 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> One global install camp starts to falter if you're working at an ad agency where you've got hundreds of projects, potentially running different versions. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:05 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> well yes, it should be possible to add it later </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:16 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» DASPRiD is not a fan of system wide, when talking about modules </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:18 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> but I think in most cases global installs are just about saving a few megs </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:22 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> rizza, that'sw hwere the parallel system versions would come in. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:40 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: yeah, and thats where it gets unmanageable </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:44 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> <ac:emoticon ac:name="laugh" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:46 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> rizza: I disagree. We are in that boat, and I currently have over 60 separate ZF based websites installed on my laptop </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:46 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: I know, I was responding primarily to Akrabat's comment. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:48 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> that's what I've argued </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 17:59:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> If you want system-wide, why don't you symlink? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:01 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I don't want 30 copies of ZF 1.10 and 30 copies of ZF 1.11 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:07 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> you can't symlink on shared hosting - so it should be localized by default. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:11 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: And all of those share the same ZF versions? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, they do – but sometimes you need multiple parallel versions. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:24 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> rizza: shared between 3 version I think </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: fair enough, and I think that just like npm does it, we'll support symlinking for that purpose </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:41 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> but by default systemwide is too complex for most people </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:49 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> it's a specialized need. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:52 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> and I want this to be as easy as possible, or people won't use it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:00:55 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:04 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: I don't think it would be hard to use Composer system-wide, if you configure it correctly? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:09 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> and I'm sick of php lagging behind in the package management field </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:23 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, its not so much complexity, its deployability thats the problem. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:24 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I just want it to be handled, otherwise I have to everything manually, and then, I'm definitely against any cli tool needed for modules <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:34 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: well, it sure is possible, it's just not wired right atm for that </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:37 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:01:44 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> there's one thing i REALLY like to mention, ZF has never taken people who depend on share hosting into account </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:04 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: well, itr's open source, feel free to come and help <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:11 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> iH8: I disagree </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:14 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> iH8: how do you come to that conclusion :S? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:15 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> iH8, I think that's because it's a very small subset of our users. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:21 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> iH8: How does ZF not work on a shared host? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:28 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: If I (a) had time and (b) was clever enough... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:47 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> to come back to what I was saying eaerlier though, this will probably be used by Symfony, and hopefully by TYPO3 for module installs on their next version (still have to discuss things) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:02:52 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> iH8, theres no blocker for shared hosting and ZF at all. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:12 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> i'm talking about the location of the library </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:13 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> ZF1 does work on everything. (minus just a few cases of extension deps) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:14 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> iH8: what I would say is that, the standard output from zf create project is not especially shared hosting friendly </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:15 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ok, lets get back to the Distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:21 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> so adding ZF to the list would be awesome since it would allow anyone to mix and match quite a lot between all those component libraries </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:26 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> and without CLI </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:27 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>back ontopic I mean</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:46 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: how to composer/packagist handle the concept of pear's channels? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:49 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kk, to bring us back: does anybody have any strong feelings diffrent than the vote summary I posted earlier? and what are the thoughts on the Dev/Debug and/or Security and/or DB/DataFormats categories? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:52 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> ok, on topic, i post on the ML </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:03:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Do we have the non-cli requirement in any RFC ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:02 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> It's kinda important... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:18 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> i.e. web-based installation of anything you like... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:28 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:31 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:32 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: non-cli is still in discussion </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:48 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: packagist is the central/default repository atm, opensource too so you can clone it and run your own repository - there are no channels, it finds any package on any repository by name, that means names should be unique, and on the about page we recommend/encourage (may enforce..) Vendor-PackageName as a pattern for naming </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:52 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I think we need CLI first, so that we know it all works, and then build a UI on top of it. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:57 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> It doesn't actually matter from what I can tell as long as it's not required for your live site </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:04:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> IMO Security is a FEATURE of framework... not an add-on ! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:01 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: just like PSR0 has Vendor\Foo for classes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:19 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:19 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:22 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> i.e. you can CLI on dev, commit to vcs and the deploy via FTP with Phing </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:25 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:25 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:33 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:39 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:43 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ACL is not security </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:05:57 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: +1, it should definitely not be required on your live site </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:07 </p></td>
<td><p> mikaelkael </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:16 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:17 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> just to conclude, if you got more questions or are just interested in following/helping, you can join the composer group on </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://groups.google.com/group/composer-dev">http://groups.google.com/group/composer-dev</a>
<p> - and now I have to run <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:19 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Debug: decouple ONLY if possible. From my experience debug works best in low-level.... if we can have low-level debugging AND have an ability to just "rm -Rf library/Zend/Debug" then of course, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:20 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, it's what a lot of frameworks discuss as "security" modules, however – how to secure your application via combination of auth/acls. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:23 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek: so I inform the composer on my local machine that it can find packages in multiple places? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:31 </p></td>
<td><p> lubs </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: Dev/Debug - extras IMO; Security=+1; DB/DataFormats = DB +1; DataFormats (If it is strictly related to MicroFormats and things of that nature sure... but JSON/BSON/etc should be more or less a serialization) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:31 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek, thanks! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:34 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Bye Seldaek, thanks! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:44 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> thanks Seldaek </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:06:44 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> thanks for listening and considering <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:02 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: yup, you can add repositories to it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:34 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> lubs, so, is that a vote for DB in core, JSON as part of serializer (part of core), and other formats in extras? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:38 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> zf2 should provided a good support to debug </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:48 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> db should be in core. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:54 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> hmm </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:57 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: yes, but it should not be in the core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:07:59 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I'm not sure db should be in core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:01 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> DB: this is a tough one. With things like doctrine and propel, it could go parallel. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:02 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: I disagree. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:05 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: by default it reads from packagist.org and your php process for version and installed extensions. Then you can also use a github repo as a repository if it has a composer.json in it, and possibly also use any git repo later (but then you'd have to specify what's in it yourself) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:20 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: not in the core sounds like not in the standard distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:22 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> DB should be out of core imho </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:27 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, don't compare it to doctrine and propel. those are ORMS not Db abstraction. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:32 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I would like core to be tiny tbh </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:35 </p></td>
<td><p> Seldaek </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: anyway /query if you got more, I don't want to spam the discussion here </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:36 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: it is not in the standard distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:37 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I'm aware of that... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:38 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> mianly because it messes a lot with the structure of a module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:42 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> will do Seldaek </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:42 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, not necessarily. It depends on what functionality should be int he standard distro. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:43 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> so why make the comparison? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:43 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> DB should not be in core in my eyes, especially since there are other things like Propel and Doctrine </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:45 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> doesn't the majority of ZF applications use a database? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:55 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> If that involves db/dataformats, then it can be outside core, but part of standard. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:56 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: Perhaps he meant Doctrine DBAL. <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:08:58 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, exactly. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:00 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: but... if you don't use it and use P/D instead, you don't need Zend\Db* at all. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:10 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: yes, but not everyone uses Zend\Db for it, lost of other people use Propel or Doctrine </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:14 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, so you don't use it.. thats fine. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:21 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I'd then like to see the "standard" distribution contain a number of packages: core, mvc, identity/auth, etc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:25 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: and don't include in core? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:27 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> core shouldnt just be the stuff that you will use every time... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:33 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> otherwise, nothing should be in core. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:37 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: what is categories in std distrib? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:47 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: Good point… </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:49 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> Db will be a <strong>hugely</strong> commonly used feature. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:09:58 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> +1 for DB in core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:04 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: doctrine and propel are vendors </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:07 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> as there is a <strong>huge</strong> base of users who will want to grab core, and go. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:07 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, metapackages defining groups of components. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:07 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> -1 for DB in core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I believe, we should not go voting-style on this one... </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:19 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Statistics are not very good for deciding functionality for a framework. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:22 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> actually </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:32 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> See: Zend\Form discussion.... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:36 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, it's the whole purpose of these meetings. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:36 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, they seem to have formed many of your former arguments </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:38 </p></td>
<td><p> Xerkus </p></td>
<td><p> +1 db in core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:43 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> thinking about it, how likely is it that distributions include ZF in their package managers? </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:45 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> there has been discussoin on the lists; now is the time to make decisions. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:49 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> No, you're missing the point. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:10:53 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> and also the premise of how a VOTE works. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:05 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: likely, it already is </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:05 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, a lot of them do, actually. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:10 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I mean ... if we break things anyways, we could think about meta-packaging as many features as we can... </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:31 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I would like someone who wants to use the distribution's ZF, to be able to expect to have a good fully functional version of our stuff </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:42 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> For example: zend-core-mvc-doctrine release vs zend-core-mvc-db release .... people will choose the meta-package they want. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:49 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> and </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:50 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: sorry, I meant: what are the categories included in the standard distribution? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:51 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> zend-default </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:53 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, and I'd expect the standard package would include several of the categories. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:11:56 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> if I was to guess, anything not in "core" may not be packaged </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:01 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> If you decide to have Zend\DB in Core, it requires a lot more planning into this. Having a single "models" folder means nothing at all. Other applications may have complex structure that "models" is like a child game here. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:13 </p></td>
<td><p> Xerkus </p></td>
<td><p> we can have overlapping categries isn't it? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:15 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: then there probably will be a zend-framework and a zend-framework-extras package </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:18 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, ah – core, mvc, and it looks like security and potentially data formats (though that looks like it may be voted out) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:27 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Xerkus: I would assume categories will overlap, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:42 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> I see a lot of inner points inside of it, like Domain, Domain Model, Domain Service, Resources Service that is attached to Domain layer too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:46 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Please drop the term "extras". There is nothing "extra" about db, nor form, nor mvc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:12:48 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Xerkus, yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:01 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: yes, but not everyone will have the ability to install via their package mangaer </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:08 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, I don't think that having db in core has anything to do with models really. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:10 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> keeping a single "models" just to allow Zend\DB is useless. That's why I vote -1 for DB in core. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:11 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, dragonbe brought up that on list. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:13 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: its the default way of having some default components, and some components that aren't in the 'core' </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:20 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> its just db abstraction, its not an ORM. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:24 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> You can have zend-everything package.... zend-everything-doctrine package .... </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> so you end up with the same problem as with php extensions like pecl_http </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:35 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> + web-based distro configurator </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:44 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: Db as TGC and will have AR </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:50 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> s/as/has </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:13:50 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, db !== model. It's data access and abstraction. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:02 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, they are still not really modeling </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:17 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I agree. defintely not model </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:21 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: I know, but how you provided it in ZF1 is totally not ideal </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:23 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: I don't think that we can package zf2 with doctrine with CLA </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:30 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> and orm isn't a model either imo <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:31 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, it's being refactored. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:50 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> zend-quickstart package would include most "common" stuff for newbies .... while more experienced devs will just get CORE and download modules/components as needed. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:50 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, no, but we <em>can</em> package bridge code. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:55 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: thank God. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:57 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I would like really granular for our own package install tooling </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:14:57 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, exactly. </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:02 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: yes, I remember <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:11 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> if i download core i want to be able to get up and running out of the box quickly without having to download other components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:12 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> Dojo webbuilder: </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://build.dojotoolkit.org/">http://build.dojotoolkit.org/</a>
<p /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:13 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: you don't have to package it.... you have installation hooks + wget </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://doctrine.org/package">http://doctrine.org/package</a>
<p /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, look in ralphschindler 's feature/db branch. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:14 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> and a "mostly everying" download </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:19 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, we thank everyone, but not god <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:22 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: ArturBodera Doctrine won't be merged because we (Doctrine) isn't interested in having a CLA. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:30 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> *aren't </p></td>
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<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:15:58 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, also, because the abstraction layers between D2 and ZF2 serve different purposes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:04 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> the argument here is Db as part of a core distribution or not, correct? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:04 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> but that's not the discussion at hand. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: no packaging. ... a bridge/adapter component + wget of Doctrine from source. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler, yes, that's the question. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:14 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: correct </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:25 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: not really. Doctrine\DBAL have the base that can be considered Zend\DB </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:32 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> +1 to Db in core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:45 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, we need to discuss that elsewhere, not here and now. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:51 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: ok </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:51 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> I don't want to cause another definition war, but: Do we have a definition of what core is? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:51 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> and – because pyrus/composer handle dependencies, we will know that some components require Zend\Db and some require Zend\DoctrineBridge </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:16:52 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> Db must in the recommended distribution </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:02 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> rizza, please refer to the RFC. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:04 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> dojo webbuilder sounds like jquery builder </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:07 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: Thanks. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:10 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:14 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> -1 in core, interaction with data, while common, is too wide a subject to be considered part of a small core for app development </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:23 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> I can just see the majority of people who want to just grab a download, and get doing, thinking that the contribs are <strong>MENTAL</strong> delivering a core package with NO form of db access in it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:30 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, it predates it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:40 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> I know I'd be letting rip a whole stream of wtf's </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:42 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: zend-package-recommended-for-newbies.zip </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:17:52 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> is core and mvc the zip file that'll be the recommended download from zf.com? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:00 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> +1 Bittarman </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:02 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:16 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: easy start or something more politic </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:17 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: so thats a +1 for core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:18 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> in that case db needs to be in either core or mvc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:23 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> If we have repo set up, we will go through statistical data and we will know which package combinations are most common – then we can adjust our "popular" packages as we go. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:24 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_, a huge +1 <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:27 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> so, if DB is in a different metapackage, but that metapackage is part of the standard dist, does that solve everyone's sensibilities? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:39 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: Yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:43 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:51 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:52 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:18:56 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, as long as its in the default release (which is what I was under the impression the core was) then yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:01 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> yeah i said that a bit ago. I want to download out of the box and start building and not have to worry about downloading other components </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:02 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> cool </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> i think we need to understand real cases of distribution before we have a solid answer </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:10 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: Yes.. Zend\Db in separate package + dependencies on all components that rely on that. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:14 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: that's my preference: multiple metapackages with a "standard" release containing a good many of them </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:15 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:28 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 i can live with that </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:28 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:32 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> We'd ship a standard distro, a kitchen sink distro, and you'd hit the package manager if you want to do anything custom. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:19:45 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Also — zend-cloud.zip zend-minimal.zip zend-cli.zip etc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:00 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> s/.zip/.tar.gz/ </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:04 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> standard distro doesn't include all categories, but popular/recommended categories? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:07 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: I think we already know: zip download, direct from vcs and finally small bits for component integrators </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:07 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, we do both. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:08 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> zend-server.zip (RPC, Service, Remote, AJAX) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:15 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: Correct. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:17 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: correct </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:19 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, I know <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:46 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: soap with RPC? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:51 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: thanks for starting the ML thread </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:20:55 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: all of em'. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:07 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> sure farrelley_ - just want to make sure everyone is on the same page </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:11 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> so: we need a set of meta-package names to organise things into and then define which of them are in "standard" and which are in "kitchen sink" ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:26 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» ArturBodera votes to finish decicing on what goes to the core </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:36 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:38 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> If we don't have the core, there is no point in talking about what isn't. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:53 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: what's in "core" is meaningless without knowing the other buckets </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:55 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: what's undecided on the core? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:21:57 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> Wouldn't we come to the same conclusion by discussing what isn't core? <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:22:15 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: do we have unit tests in distrib (like in ZF1 style)? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:22:22 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:22:29 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: i think package management is the main distribution medium for PHP in the next 5 years (we've seen this in other communities) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:22:48 </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler </p></td>
<td><p> zip and vcs are going dodo-bird </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:22:52 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I'm happy if you stop using the word "core" and use the word "standard distribution" - it's more descriptive <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:22:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, do you want to take a stab at defining the main categories real quickly? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:05 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: you clearly don't target IIS </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:07 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat: that's not the same </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:21 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: Is it recovers some components of the namespace ZendX? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:28 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, yes. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:43 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I think ZendX should go away, and we should incorporate what we can from it. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:44 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: which? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:48 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: dodo lol </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:49 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> related question: I'm guessing that the ZendX namespace will be discontinued? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:51 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> definitely console </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:23:58 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, yes. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:24:14 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, potentially jquery </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:24:15 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ok, good <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:24:33 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kk, so, what about these as categories (this will take a minute or two to type): </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:24:34 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> has anyone shown interest in reviving jquery yet? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:24:44 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>core (basic, discrete functionality)</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:24:48 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> jquery is a perfect candidate for a module – that will download jquery.js from http:// during installation </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:00 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, me but Dojo first </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:00 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> i'll look up how I divded up ZF1 components last time </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:06 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>db/dataformats (DB, serializer, DOM, etc.)</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:11 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>MVC</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:12 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: module O_o </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:24 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Security (authentication, authorization, identity)</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:24 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">_</span> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:37 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> under \Js namespace i guess? \Js\Dojo \Js\Jquery </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:41 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Extras (anything else out of that bucket?)</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:25:51 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: that are exactly the type of things we want to avoid, doing lots of things like downloading jquery.js during installation of a package/module </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:00 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> the latter might need to get chopped up into things like "services", "cloud" etc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:03 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> servces </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:07 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, does that sound good? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:21 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> internationalisation and development were the three others I used </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:23 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I hate "extras" </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:24 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: I think it's better to categorize all extras </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:33 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, ah, right </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:34 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, they look good to me </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:38 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> The main repo will never have "extras", but precise categories. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:45 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: do you know a better name? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:51 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> "stuff" </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:52 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> so, then, moving on, the "standard distribution" would include: </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:54 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>core</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:54 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> throw in an example </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> (class) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:26:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>db/dataformats</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:02 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>security</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:04 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>mvc</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:11 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> and * i18n/l10n </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:32 </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD </p></td>
<td><p> one question, would Zend\Ical be in formats distribution or extras? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:39 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD, probably formats </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:47 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: db =( </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:52 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> DASPRiD: data formats. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:27:53 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> but we chat later </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:05 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» guilhermeblanco just saw ralph's repo </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:22 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: Queue, Barcode, Feed, Cloud, Markup </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:40 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> remarks on my previous categorizations? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:43 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> feed go in format? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:47 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:53 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, how much of the V would be in the MVC? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:58 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» weierophinney will have a lot of editing to do on the RFC </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:28:59 </p></td>
<td><p> rizza </p></td>
<td><p> I think the service components should be in a category all to their own. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:29:06 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> btw weierophinney, will there still be one big git repo, or might that change in the future, like with a zf2 and a zf2-extras repo? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:29:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, most if not all... why? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:29:09 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> would it be for example <strong>all</strong> view helpers, renderers etc. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:29:15 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> or would some of that be broken off? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:29:23 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, need to investigate. we may need to go submodule style. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:29:49 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, some of that may be broken off if it's highly specialized, I suppose; I would expect some of that stuff could go into 3rd party modules, tbh </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:00 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> because, I was thinking of proposaing a Twig renderer when we see more of the MVC, </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:03 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I'd like to see broken up </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:10 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, absolutely. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:17 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> and obv. that would have another dependancy, so it would make sense to be external </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:19 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> e.g. if form has view helpers, I want them in \form, not \view </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:29 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, kk, makes sense. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:31 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> so, do we end up with two Z\View namespaces </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:35 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> "extras" is terrible. It's like saying "the rest" or "stuff we don't personally use but here you go". We cannot use that. It should go into separate domains/categories that best describe it and promote extensions. I.e. Queue can live in its own "Queue" category which will be later populated with more 3rd party components for queue. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:46 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> no - we have a better broker system nowadays </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:47 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> one with the stuff distributed in the MVC metapackage, and one with whats in extras? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:50 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, see Akrabat 's resopnse. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:30:58 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: I completely agree about extras </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:07 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, agreed. I'll break into other categories when I edit later. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:14 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:29 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: these categories are foundation for the whole repository, so choose wisely <ac:emoticon ac:name="laugh" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:32 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, think of 'extras' as being, the <strong>rest</strong> of the Zend namespace, thats not in those primary meta-packages </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:34 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, the main thing is deciding which buckets we complete for ZF2 stable. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:38 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> not as some dusty corner of the lib. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:38 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> and don't go "pearish". </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:31:55 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:02 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: don't force it... if queue doesn't fit, don't force it into ZF2 launch party or whatever. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:06 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> like, all the Zend\Service stuff <strong>clearly</strong> belongs in such a sub-set of ZF </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:16 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: also, we can put a component in a bucket, but leave out for 2.0 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:38 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, true </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:49 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kk, I have one last thing to bring up. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:51 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> maybe have an "unsupported" place to put them for 2.0 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:32:56 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> To recap: everything that wasn't mentioned, so called "extras", should not be part of ZF2 launch plan. This should go in parallel and go into repository for optional download/installation. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:33:12 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Otherwise, ZF2 will be ready by 2015 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:33:38 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, agreed, that's what the point of this part of the discussion was. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:33:58 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I'll propose how we implement that on the list. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:02 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, my last thing: </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:09 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: so ZF2 launch schedule = launch schedule for core, MVC, DB, security ... ok ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:13 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> though, if someone finishes zend\service\pinboard in time, no reason why it can't be included </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:21 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, right </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:37 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> extras has only barcode, services, captcha, cloud, pdf, search, and markup now? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:39 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> the idea is simply that if the component is <em>not</em> ready by then, and falls outside the standard dist, we don't ship it. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:41 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> I'd actually like to see the items which are not in the primary meta-packages, and in the "extras" space kept outside of the ZF versioning, and have their own version numbers tbh </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:49 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: "ONLY" hahahah .. joke of the day </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:53 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: exactly </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:57 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> though, implementation of that may prove... too much. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:34:59 </p></td>
<td><p> hhatfield </p></td>
<td><p> it = the component? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:35:21 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, ZendCon would be a great opportunity to get word out about ZF2. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:35:42 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: IMO the only thing we should "ship" is the CORE+MVC+DB+security. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:00 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: the rest goes to repo, even before launch... or after... depends on each case.. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:17 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, that's the "standard distribution". We'd also do a "full distribution" that would include those things that are complete but outside those categories. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:19 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> I'd like to see Doctrine2 integration ready for the ZF2 launch, and i'm pretty sure a pretty large number of others would too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:20 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I'd like a PoC of the MVC out soonish... we can't do that till we sort out architechture and how modules fit into it. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:34 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> whether its in the standard distribution or not, its becomming very popular </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:36 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, plannnin on that either this afternoon or tomorrow morning. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:37 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: I can handle this integration if you want </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:38 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> =D </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:43 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:43 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco: <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:56 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: I already have a reosurce for zf1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:36:56 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, i'm happy to help <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:06 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> should be easy to move to zf2 too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:08 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Does anybody feel we can do a beta for ZendCon? It would force us to focus on the necessary requiremetns and push forward quickly. Thoughts? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:19 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: how "wide" ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:21 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney, I'd love to see it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:22 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: we cannot do that </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:24 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco, depends on what MVC looks like. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> It may be even <em>easier</em>! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:36 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: =D </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:37 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> If we can get mvc architecture and modules sorted, the yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:38 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> I think it would force a little bit too much </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:37:44 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> core+MVC+oldDB1.0 maybe ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:01 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> ralphschindler: no pun intended </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:02 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> if beta is defined as "minimal core" + mvc + db </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:03 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: we might call it an alpha maybe </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, can you elaborate? (I'm actually in fact-finding mode right now) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:11 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney / guilhermeblanco, I was thinking something along the lines of having pagination adapters, and auth adapters in place too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:13 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> as I think ralphschindler's \db isn't far off now? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:18 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> core + mvc + (some sort of DB assoc_ </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:20 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: beta = freeze new components for 2.0? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:20 </p></td>
<td><p> guilhermeblanco </p></td>
<td><p> =D </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:22 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> alpha's not a bad name for it </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:35 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: no freeze... they go to repo. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:35 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> yeah, alpha would probably be better </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:39 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, not necessarily. But alpha may make more sense. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:48 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: well, I think that a lot of components won't be far enough by ZendCon, and a Beta kinda should already have some restrictions, at least, thats what the name implies </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:55 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> alpha has to be good enough to create a website on </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:38:56 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> API would probably still be unstable, which by definition should really rule out it being called BETA </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:06 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: with the code in quickstart, do you need a lot of days to finish (M)VC? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:13 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> devX are "please play with this new bit" releases </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:15 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> alpha +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:19 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> an alpha implies more like something that works, but is definitely not recommended to use </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:22 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, no, I just need to refactor it to use the new HTTP structure. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:29 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> which I can do today or tomorrow. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:46 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: what do you prefer to show off at zendcon? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:49 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> a beta implies that its already workable and that should not give too many problems when going to the final version </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:50 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, sounding like preference is alpha for zendcon? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:56 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:39:57 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: architecture? new MVC ? whole approach ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:05 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:06 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, I'd prefer stable by zendcon, but I <em>KNOW</em> that ain't happening. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:14 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> I think alpha will be a more accurate name for whats achievable by then </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:15 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> usefully, weierophinney's ZendCon requirements and my phpnw11 requirements are matching... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:17 </p></td>
<td><p> mikaelkael </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:21 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: we need to define some common API for beta like puggable, configurable, etc </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:37 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> call something beta too early, and your effectively stepping into the bc trap early. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:46 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, yes, that needs to happen as well as finalizing mvc, and is more argument for going alpha than beta. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:46 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> alpha should allow us to show off building a website </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:40:51 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: no, I mean which part.... because module architecture could be a good topic for a talk, but we need to know where to focus our efforts. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:41:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, talks are already determined, except for the uncon. But we may be able to sneak into the keynote. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:41:19 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, +1 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:41:31 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> So, here's what I propose: </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:41:48 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Try and finalize basic infrastructure of MVC w/in 2 weeks</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:41:52 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: then your focus is marketing - i.e. "dear audience, go to this link, download alpha and play" ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:08 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Try to finalize other infrastructure (pluggable, configuration) in that time frame</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:19 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> we should be showing a solid api </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:20 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, yes – to get more mindshare and testing around zf2. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:20 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: +1 <ac:emoticon ac:name="laugh" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:37 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> to that end, get the prototype in a branch by tomorrow. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:42 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> iH8: no, because then we're falling in the bc trap already </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:49 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: maybe first ideas of benchmark on EC2 for zendcon? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:42:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa, I can get that this week </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:03 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa: bad idea... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:07 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> which is why we call it an alpha, and not a beta </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:13 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, no, good one. performance is a specific goal of zf2 </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:22 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> I agree with weierophinney </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:24 </p></td>
<td><p> iH8 </p></td>
<td><p> that's why i'm against going alpha or beta for zendcon unless there is a solid api </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:25 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> I know, but these will be micro-opt benchmarks... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: do you want to run the MVC RFC? otherwise, I will (if noone else volunteers) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:36 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> i.e. benchmarks make more sense with modular architecture in place and X modules. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:45 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> iH8, alpha implies api is mostly gelled, but may change. beta means solid api </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:43:57 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, let's discuss after the meeting. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:04 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> kk </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:20 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> iH8: we need an API to review all components in the same way too </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:20 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> so, kokx, want to summarize? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:24 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> sure </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:29 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Now that we're 15m over the 90m limit? <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:35 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> <ac:emoticon ac:name="cheeky" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:39 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> lol </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:44:40 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> on the other hand .. marketing again <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> So I retract that . </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:45:19 </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa / ArturBoderam any benchmarks would be meaningless, as they'd have no context. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:45:30 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> wait, I've actually lost what he decided.... </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:45:42 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> Bittarman: Matthew will probably go with a nice ZF1/ZF2 comparison... this will work. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:46:14 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: I hope that you kept track of the decisions that were made? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:46:38 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera, I can compare ZF1 to ZF2 using ZF1-style MVC to ZF2 using DI prototype (both runtime and compiled) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:46:47 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> kokx, I have, and will write a summary </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:46:53 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: good idea. Do that. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:46:55 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:46:56 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ok, thanks weierophinney </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:11 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> The wiki is editable anyways. <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:15 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney: well, nobody here is completely unbiased </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:29 </p></td>
<td><p> </p></td>
<td><p> »» weierophinney faints... SAY IT ISN'T SO! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:45 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> except for me of course <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:47 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:55 </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: how about that summary ? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:47:57 </p></td>
<td><p> mikaelkael </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: of course </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:09 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I'll do a quick summary: </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:23 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> I have these three points as "next steps" noted down: </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:23 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> ArturBodera: not sure how it happened, but my mind is locking up on what was decided :X </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:25 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Move the modules discussion on, on the ML to make sure we know what's going on</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Try and finalize basic infrastructure of MVC w/in 2 weeks</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:26 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><ul>
<li>Try to finalize other infrastructure (pluggable, configuration) in that time frame</li>
</ul>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:52 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat, perfet </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:55 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> (I may have to be strict about keeping a thread on topic...) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:56 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> PadraicB, YOU'RE LATE!!!! </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:48:58 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:13 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> we also reached a consensus on what should be in the standard distribution, right? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:20 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> I think we came up with a definition of modules vs components: </p>
<a class="external-link" href="http://pastebin.com/Rw5Fq65b">http://pastebin.com/Rw5Fq65b</a>
<p /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:22 </p></td>
<td><p> rdohms </p></td>
<td><p> ok, i'm back what did i miss <strong>trollface</strong> </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:40 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> and also the standard dist (core + db/formats + i18n/l10n + security + mvc) </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:44 </p></td>
<td><p> Akrabat </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: no. weierophinney will rework the RFC to a set of buckets with components in </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:46 </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_ </p></td>
<td><p> also we we going to look at composer right? </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:48 </p></td>
<td><p> intiilapa </p></td>
<td><p> kokx: yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:49:59 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> but, as Akrabat said, I need to rework the RFC so we can discuss </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:50:00 </p></td>
<td><p> kokx </p></td>
<td><p> farrelley_: the Zend team said they will do that yes </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:50:10 </p></td>
<td><p> weierophinney </p></td>
<td><p> Also, we've added composer to possible installation tools </p></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p> Aug 31 18:50:34 </p></td>
<td><p> PadraicB </p></td>
<td><p> I'm not late. You're all early. Didn't you get the memo about the new time? <ac:emoticon ac:name="wink" /> </p></td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>

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