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<li>Date: 23 November 2011, 17:00-18:00 UTC</li>
<li><ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="2011-11-23 Meeting Agenda" /><ac:link-body>Agenda</ac:link-body></ac:link></li>
<li>Moderator: Ralph Schindler (nickname ralphschindler)</li>
<li>Next meeting: <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="2011-11-23 Meeting Agenda" /><ac:link-body>Wednesday, 7 December 2011, 17:00 UTC</ac:link-body></ac:link></li>
<li>New users coming from ZF1 to ZF2 expect the /:module/:controller/:action to work as in ZF1</li>
<li>Given the current module architecture, facilitating the above magic route is prohibitively expensive:
<li>one must know the full set of controllers and actions, and they must currently be exposed as di services</li>
<p><strong>It was decided</strong> that routes and dispatchables/controllers would be required to be explicitly set instead of magically discovered. There is the possibility of a non-core module providing this functionality - currently located in EdpMagicRoute.</p>
<li>There are 3 components who's "beta2 featureset" must be decided on for Beta2 (2 weeks away):
<li>i18n has been removed as a potential blocker for beta2, and that more information on its future development and contributors is required at this time.</li>
<p><strong>It has been decided</strong> to create a beta2 and a beta3 featureset/requirement list for Cache, Log, & Mail.<br />
<strong>It has also been decided</strong> that we need to get a status, set of requirements, timelines and general update on i18n from Thomas to better understand it's development in the ZF2 context.</p>
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2011-11-23 16:59:21 <intiilapa> only 12? :o
2011-11-23 17:00:03 <ralphschindler> hi all
2011-11-23 17:01:02 <ezimuel> hi guys
2011-11-23 17:01:03 <ralphschindler> we'll wait 5 mins for everyone to collect themselves
2011-11-23 17:01:10 intiilapa: you're up for moderation?
2011-11-23 17:01:14 <intiilapa> :o
2011-11-23 17:01:30 <EvanDotPro> has collected himself
2011-11-23 17:01:40 <intiilapa> I need a little time to read and understand all in this
2011-11-23 17:02:05 Matthew is not here?
2011-11-23 17:02:39 <ezimuel> matthew cannot join us today
2011-11-23 17:02:48 <intiilapa> I forgot to vote
2011-11-23 17:02:56 ezimuel: ready for Lille?
2011-11-23 17:03:14 <ezimuel> yes, i'm finishing my slides
2011-11-23 17:04:02 <kokx> hi all!
2011-11-23 17:04:23 ezimuel: too bad
2011-11-23 17:04:24 <intiilapa> ezimuel: if you can send a copy of your slides when you
are finish please
2011-11-23 17:04:40 <ralphschindler> this is the meeting agenda:
2011-11-23 17:04:43 <ezimuel> intiilapa: sure
2011-11-23 17:05:11 kokx: actually this is the first time that I have slides ready
before a conference
2011-11-23 17:05:31 <kokx> ezimuel: I was talking about that matthew cannot join us
2011-11-23 17:05:54 but having your slides ready before the conference isn't
really that bad
2011-11-23 17:06:03 <ezimuel> kokx: ops, sorry
2011-11-23 17:06:21 <ralphschindler> alrighty, shall we get started?
2011-11-23 17:06:31 seems like the attendance is light this week
2011-11-23 17:06:49 <kokx> indeed ralphschindler
2011-11-23 17:06:54 but lets get started yes
2011-11-23 17:07:25 <ralphschindler> EvanDotPro: do you want to lead the discussion on this
2011-11-23 17:07:32 <EvanDotPro> ralphschindler: sure
2011-11-23 17:08:07 okay, so a lot of folks from ZF1 have come in asking, why
their old /:module/:controller/:action routes don't work.
2011-11-23 17:08:52 <EvanDotPro> we've omitted that as a default or even an available
route at all, in favor of explicitly defining controllers... but that seems to be causing some
people to stumble.
2011-11-23 17:09:13 <intiilapa> EvanDotPro: this route does not exist in ZF2 more than
2011-11-23 17:09:36 <EvanDotPro> correct, it's omitted completely (not included) in zf2
2011-11-23 17:09:43 <andho> I think it was a factor for ease of entry into the
2011-11-23 17:10:07 <intiilapa> for me, module ZF1 != module ZF2 and route are in the
2011-11-23 17:10:23 module ZF1 = directory and module ZF2 is a controller
2011-11-23 17:10:33 andho: right
2011-11-23 17:11:06 <EvanDotPro> i'm against trying to maintain such functionality... i
think we can solve the problem with more documentation and examples for how to set up their own
2011-11-23 17:11:40 <ralphschindler> i agree with EvanDotPro in this regard
2011-11-23 17:11:42 <kokx> ezimuel: ++
2011-11-23 17:11:44 <andho> Is this functionality not in popular use?
2011-11-23 17:11:46 <kokx> * EvanDotPro ++
2011-11-23 17:12:12 <andho> functionality being, automatic routes for modules
2011-11-23 17:12:21 <ocramius> agreed with EvanDotPro, word "modules" has changed too
much to work the "old way"
2011-11-23 17:12:23 <ezimuel> i agree with EvanDotPro
2011-11-23 17:12:23 <andho> built-in, default, whatever
2011-11-23 17:12:24 <intiilapa> EvanDotPro: if I remember this old route has a problem
with view layer?
2011-11-23 17:12:51 <kokx> andho: maybe in ZF1, but for ZF2 I think we would prefer
to keep it more 'clean'
2011-11-23 17:13:07 <intiilapa> andho: I need std querystring for some route in ZF1, I
create the class for this route
2011-11-23 17:13:08 <EvanDotPro> intiilapa: yes, a lot of work would have to be done to
make it dynamically swap out view paths in different scenarios... the implementation would not be
2011-11-23 17:13:09 <jurians> topic is routing?
2011-11-23 17:13:22 <intiilapa> I know that we found soon a custom route from user to
have this old route in ZF2
2011-11-23 17:13:54 <EvanDotPro> there are some folks on the ML who seem to think this is
very important, however... so i even went as far as creating a module that provides the
2011-11-23 17:13:54 <intiilapa> jurians: no, topic is controller naming vs old module
route from ZF1 (/:module/:controller/:action)
2011-11-23 17:14:52 <kokx> intiilapa: yeah, but it definitely should not be
included in the framework if its something that just does not cleanly apply to ZF2
2011-11-23 17:15:23 <EvanDotPro> i'm not sure if such a module is a good enough solution
for those who absolutely will not settle for anything else, but it's something... my main goal was
to show exactly how unclean it is to do something like that for ZF2.
2011-11-23 17:16:25 <andho> what's the alternative for those people who wants that?
2011-11-23 17:16:40 <jurians> EvanDotPro: if it's not good enough, a PR for
EdpMagicRoute would be sufficient imho
2011-11-23 17:16:47 <EvanDotPro> jurians: +1
2011-11-23 17:17:07 <intiilapa> andho: educate folks?
2011-11-23 17:17:12 <jurians> mz, mwop not here?
2011-11-23 17:17:17 <EvanDotPro> andho: i believe the suggested method in ZF2 will be
that users define explicit routes per-module.
2011-11-23 17:17:24 <intiilapa> jurians: mwop is off all this week
2011-11-23 17:17:29 <jurians> k
2011-11-23 17:18:04 <ezimuel> EvanDotPro: +1
2011-11-23 17:18:05 <intiilapa> EvanDotPro: do you know if we can setup routes with part
by module? part of Guestbook + segment
2011-11-23 17:18:07 ?
2011-11-23 17:18:32 <EvanDotPro> intiilapa: yes you can do that very easily.
2011-11-23 17:18:49 you can see how i've provide routes for my EdpUser module
2011-11-23 17:19:30 the way DASPRiD has set up the routes config array works very
well with how configs are merged across modules, so you can add to or override any part of any route
2011-11-23 17:20:06 <jurians> EvanDotPro: only propblem I see is with removing
routes from existing module, but that's another topic
2011-11-23 17:20:10 intiilapa: in EdpUser now literals are used, but segments work
too. Was that your question?
2011-11-23 17:21:17 <intiilapa> ok
2011-11-23 17:21:54 <EvanDotPro> yeah you could definitely stick segments in there
instead.. i just stuck with literals because of how simple it is right now... also then users can
override just the /user/login route if they want.
2011-11-23 17:22:28 though with route priorities, you can make a literal route
take priority over a segment, etc.. so there's really no problems.
2011-11-23 17:22:39 <ralphschindler> so where is this discussion going, to make MagicRoutes
(really, they are DynamicRoutes) part of the core offering?
2011-11-23 17:23:07 <ocramius> I won't do that... It's confusing imho...
2011-11-23 17:23:09 <EvanDotPro> the word "magic" was for added negative emphasis
2011-11-23 17:23:42 <ralphschindler> haha, if we don't want people to have them, lets not put
them in core
2011-11-23 17:23:51 <EvanDotPro> i'm against making the EdpMagicRoutes logic part of the
2011-11-23 17:24:01 <ralphschindler> if we do want to allow it, lets come up with an aptly
named non-connotative name and solution
2011-11-23 17:24:04 <kokx> I completely agree, its something that definitely does
not belong in the core
2011-11-23 17:24:12 <intiilapa> jurians: no, convert /:module/:controller/:action from
ZF1 to /guestbook (literal part module) + segment route
2011-11-23 17:24:48 <ocramius> Until it's as simple as loading evan's module it's just
a pro that shows how the Module Manager potential is used...
2011-11-23 17:25:13 <intiilapa> ralphschindler: maybe we need to review this after view
layer update, because if this route is included that sounds like more stuff on view layer
2011-11-23 17:25:13 <ocramius> Could be provided as doc that shows how to port ZF1
2011-11-23 17:25:30 <ezimuel> I think the EdpMagicRoutes is a perfect example of the
power of the module/routing manager
2011-11-23 17:25:32 <ralphschindler> lets get a count- Should we include in core. I am -1
2011-11-23 17:25:39 <ocramius> -1
2011-11-23 17:25:45 <EvanDotPro> -1
2011-11-23 17:25:46 <intiilapa> I think we need to have documentation about migration
from app ZF1 for SEO & cie
2011-11-23 17:25:47 <DASPRiD> meeting? o.0
2011-11-23 17:25:47 <ezimuel> -1
2011-11-23 17:25:53 <DASPRiD> damn, i'm missing it all the time >_>
2011-11-23 17:25:56 <intiilapa> DASPRiD: wake up
2011-11-23 17:26:01 <DASPRiD> EvanDotPro, thanks for the highlight
2011-11-23 17:26:10 <EvanDotPro> DASPRiD: np
2011-11-23 17:26:12 <andho> 0
2011-11-23 17:26:22 <intiilapa> DASPRiD: topic module route of ZF1
2011-11-23 17:26:32 <DASPRiD> okay, i'm out again
2011-11-23 17:26:35 <intiilapa> lol
2011-11-23 17:26:41 <ezimuel> intiilapa: the EdpMagicRoutes can become Zf1Routes of
something like that
2011-11-23 17:26:51 <intiilapa> EvanDotPro: but SEO is an issue to solve for me
2011-11-23 17:27:10 <kokx> ezimuel: still, its no good for the core of ZF2
2011-11-23 17:27:15 <jurians> -1 for in core, but I already thought it was heading
2011-11-23 17:27:25 <DASPRiD> -1 for in core as well
2011-11-23 17:27:35 <intiilapa> -1
2011-11-23 17:27:40 <ralphschindler> ok, so -1 on dynamic routes as part of core, but we may
revisit after the view layer materializes and if any additional infrastructure becomes available to
facilitate such a feature
2011-11-23 17:27:42 <ezimuel> kokx: yes, it's not in the core, it's only an example
2011-11-23 17:27:53 <EvanDotPro> i'd call that unanimous
2011-11-23 17:27:59 <ralphschindler> alright, next question
2011-11-23 17:27:59 <jurians> +1 for that, to confuse you all lol
2011-11-23 17:28:10 <DASPRiD> slaps jurians
2011-11-23 17:28:13 <ralphschindler> Beta 2 Readiness
2011-11-23 17:28:14 <intiilapa> but I don't think that we should vote in meeting with 20
or 50 peoples vs ZF community :\
2011-11-23 17:28:15 <jurians> ;/
2011-11-23 17:28:24 <ralphschindler> "We need to close off loose ends for beta 2. During this
portion of the discussion, we should determine what tasks are still outstanding, and a timeline for
2011-11-23 17:28:50 <intiilapa> Locale and/or Translator can't be included in beta2
2011-11-23 17:28:56 <ralphschindler> what does beta 2 look like? it appears that Cache, Log
and Mail are the outstanding feature?S
2011-11-23 17:29:10 <DASPRiD> ralphschindler, i want to get unit tests (router) for
beta2 finalized, so I can be sure it's bug free in that version
2011-11-23 17:29:15 <jurians> intiilapa: pita for i18n indeed
2011-11-23 17:29:17 <intiilapa> Cache need help for event integration + rebase from last
master with BC + review by expert in Cache
2011-11-23 17:30:11 jurians: don't talk about that >_< space bug about
Zend_Translate => crash only on Google if a translation is "Paiement en ligne sécurisé" instead of
"Paiement sécurisé" ...
2011-11-23 17:30:38 Matthew has start rewrite of Mail, and I have start rewrite of
2011-11-23 17:30:54 I'm not ready for the next week I think :\
2011-11-23 17:31:10 <ralphschindler> ok
2011-11-23 17:31:21 so we're looking at 2 weeks before beta-ready?
2011-11-23 17:31:34 <intiilapa> ralphschindler: theory?
2011-11-23 17:31:34 <ralphschindler> DASPRiD: can route tests be done by then?
2011-11-23 17:31:37 <jurians> Actually, I think we need to discuss i18n openly. Thomas
hasn't been really responsive and i18n is an important base feature for other components. Will this
be solved, other ideas?
2011-11-23 17:31:47 <DASPRiD> ralphschindler, 2 weeks? sure
2011-11-23 17:31:48 <intiilapa> beta1 + 6 weeks = next week I think
2011-11-23 17:31:59 <ralphschindler> well, we have holidays this week
2011-11-23 17:32:03 <intiilapa> ok
2011-11-23 17:32:07 <EvanDotPro> jurians: +1, let's discuss it after we finish the beta2
readiness if everyone's okay with that.
2011-11-23 17:32:09 <DASPRiD> you and your dirty holidays
2011-11-23 17:32:15 <ralphschindler> so i'd say end of next week, but really beginning of the
following would be realistic
2011-11-23 17:32:15 <jurians> EvanDotPro: ll
2011-11-23 17:32:16 *kk
2011-11-23 17:32:17 <intiilapa> DASPRiD: looool
2011-11-23 17:32:32 <jurians> holidays means lots of time to code, no excuse
2011-11-23 17:32:40 <DASPRiD> xactly!
2011-11-23 17:32:53 <ralphschindler> how about log intiilapa - can that get to a ready state?
2011-11-23 17:33:15 actually, log + cache
2011-11-23 17:34:01 <intiilapa> ralphschindler: partial rewrite for beta2, and new
features for beta3 I guess
2011-11-23 17:34:06 my time is limited this month
2011-11-23 17:34:20 <jurians> Zend\Cache last commit from marc was Nov 8
2011-11-23 17:34:25 <ralphschindler> intiilapa: do you have a requirements list for beta2?
2011-11-23 17:34:52 to be able to see what is for beta2 then what will go into
2011-11-23 17:34:53 <intiilapa> beta2? I have my RFC on wiki
2011-11-23 17:34:59 <ralphschindler> link?
2011-11-23 17:35:14 <intiilapa>
2011-11-23 17:35:25 but it's not filter on beta2
2011-11-23 17:36:14 <jurians> intiilapa: you got a github branch already?
2011-11-23 17:36:19 <ralphschindler> do you want to do a breakdown of what you'd like to
finish for beta2 and what you'd like to focus on in beta3?
2011-11-23 17:36:20 <intiilapa> and Matthew wants an UML from relation betweens entities
2011-11-23 17:36:26 <jurians> if so, others can watch and PR optionally
2011-11-23 17:36:32 <intiilapa> jurians:
2011-11-23 17:36:52 <jurians> whoever is moderator today, please put that into the
2011-11-23 17:37:11 <ralphschindler> i guess I am moderating, so yes, ill summarize
2011-11-23 17:37:27 <jurians> thanks
2011-11-23 17:37:31 <intiilapa> breakdown?
2011-11-23 17:37:54 <ralphschindler> list of things outstanding for beta2, what you want to
include in beta3
2011-11-23 17:38:55 <intiilapa> If you want, but I don't think that a RFC is a roadmap
for one beta release
2011-11-23 17:39:26 <jurians> intiilapa: true, just when beta2 is released it should
be clear what's in it and what not
2011-11-23 17:39:36 <ralphschindler> well, the thing is, how will we know log and cache are
ready for beta2?
2011-11-23 17:39:56 <intiilapa> ralphschindler: do you have read thread about cache and
my summary on top?
2011-11-23 17:40:37 <intiilapa> ralphschindler: you need to talk with Mabe for Cache and
who can help to finish this
2011-11-23 17:41:05 ralphschindler: good question
2011-11-23 17:41:07 <lsmith> crazy question from an outsider .. have you guys
considered seeing if Monolog could be a basis for your log needs .. and Doctrine Cache for your
2011-11-23 17:41:17 <ralphschindler> ok- so we need to define what feature set for log and
cache represent ready for beta2
2011-11-23 17:41:39 i can vouch for matthew that mail will be beta2 ready within 2
2011-11-23 17:42:15 <jurians> ralphschindler: afaik some small changes (signature
changes) and big changes (events) need to be done for cache
2011-11-23 17:42:28 <intiilapa> lsmith: not crazy lol
2011-11-23 17:42:28 <jurians> so: if small changes can be completed before beta2, I'm
2011-11-23 17:42:32 <ralphschindler> i don't see why an adapter can't be written lsmith as
the interfaces for these components should be fairly simple
2011-11-23 17:42:57 the same way ZendServer is a cache backend for Doctrine's
2011-11-23 17:43:27 <ocramius> lsmith, from what I know there shouldn't be dependencies
to third party libs in these components, but the new Module architecture could allow including them
2011-11-23 17:44:17 <jurians> ocramius: +1 I'd rather see an adapter to create the
dependency than force it in the first place
2011-11-23 17:44:41 <EvanDotPro> yep, that's a great use case for modules.
2011-11-23 17:44:45 <ralphschindler> is there any questions left on the table for this
2011-11-23 17:44:50 are there*
2011-11-23 17:45:03 <jurians> I said something about i18n
2011-11-23 17:45:28 <ralphschindler> i don't think we have enough information on the state of
i18n and the group (person) taking care of it, do we?
2011-11-23 17:45:30 <EvanDotPro> yeah, let's append i18n to the discussion really quick
if our moderator doesn't mind...
2011-11-23 17:45:53 <ralphschindler> ok- what do we know?
2011-11-23 17:45:58 <jurians> I think it's such a fundamental feature it's hard to say
Thomas will solve it, although he can't be reached
2011-11-23 17:46:24 I'm not proposing a solution, actually, but it seems we don't
want to talk about it, or something
2011-11-23 17:46:49 I'm just trying to stop that and see what the options are
2011-11-23 17:46:51 <EvanDotPro> yeah i can say from my perspective, all i've heard is
"Thomas is working on it, but no one can reach Thomas"
2011-11-23 17:46:51 <lsmith> jurians: my point was more in the direction that you
guys might want to consider to focus your resources on stuff where you really want to take a new
approach ... and for everything else collaborate with the community .. but just being a talking fly
on the wall here that wants to provide some food for thought
2011-11-23 17:46:54 <ralphschindler> unless someone more active in the community steps up,
thomas will more than likely remain the shepherd for that component set
2011-11-23 17:47:30 <jurians> ralphschindler: also if that means it's ready at zf2.5?
2011-11-23 17:47:50 <EvanDotPro> and as someone who would really like to start adding
translations to his modules, that gives me a pretty fuzzy outlook on when that will even be
2011-11-23 17:48:13 <ralphschindler> lsmith: if the base interface for LogInterface is
it can be adapted to any logging solution, but if someone
here wants to offer it out the box (Which people do) they are more than welcome to build out the
solution inside this infrastructure and code-lifecycle
2011-11-23 17:48:44 <ralphschindler> jurians: I'm simply stating that someone needs to step
up and take it on if its important
2011-11-23 17:49:24 <ocramius> lsmith, got your point, but that will surely happen over
time as soon as the module architecture is used more and more From what I know, there's already a
list of things that should work out of the box... Removing stuff in favor of third party libs will
surely happen where the third party module works better
2011-11-23 17:49:45 (or at least that seems to be the trend, so ignore my
2011-11-23 17:50:05 <EvanDotPro> well, it is definitely important.. question is, is it
important enough to anyone to step up and take charge? also, is Thomas' progress up and recent
enough for someone to take it and run? does anyone know?
2011-11-23 17:50:34 notes that perhaps "using third party components" could be a
possible future meeting topic
2011-11-23 17:50:43 s/possible/possibly
2011-11-23 17:51:06 <lsmith> ralphschindler: isnt that a euphemism for inviting NIH?
but anyway .. provided my food for thought .. thanks for not flogging me
2011-11-23 17:51:12 <intiilapa> lsmith: I have read a PR about Doctrine and usage of
Zend\Http\Client for Doctrine Search and it should be a way decided with all people
2011-11-23 17:51:22 <jurians> I just wanted to break the silence about i18n, perhaps
it's good to discuss in depth (also 3rd party) at next meeting
2011-11-23 17:51:52 <ralphschindler> lsmith: not at all, I'm simply stating that
Zend\Db\DbAdapter::setLogger() should be setLogger(LogInterface $log) As opposed to
2011-11-23 17:52:07 <lsmith> ralphschindler: ah ok
2011-11-23 17:52:11 <andho> i would like to be clear if there is a Zend Core and
another part of Zend that is not core
2011-11-23 17:53:02 <EvanDotPro> andho: you mean Zend Framework, not Zend, right?
2011-11-23 17:53:10 <andho> yeah not zend
2011-11-23 17:53:10 <ralphschindler> the only problem with 3rd party code is that we can't
respond to support issues and have any control over 3rd party code-lifecycles and we don't' want to
get in the business of shipping someone else's code and patching someone else's code b/c their
distribution schedule doesn't match ours
2011-11-23 17:53:29 <intiilapa> ralphschindler: the discussion of lsmith remember me
your proposal of bridge concept, do you have something for the next meeting about this subject?
2011-11-23 17:53:35 <andho> because the previous discussion was about including the
AutoMagicRouting in Zend Core or not
2011-11-23 17:53:47 <ralphschindler> back to thomas and i18n though - i say we table this and
reach out to thomas with some pointed questions about his progress and protective developments
2011-11-23 17:53:57 <intiilapa> about THomas and i18n
2011-11-23 17:54:21 <EvanDotPro> andho: it's been discussed in a previous meeting. see
2011-11-23 17:54:34 <intiilapa> I have do the first contact with him, and Matthew should
talk with him about roadmap
2011-11-23 17:54:42 <lsmith> ralphschindler: yes of course .. deciding to recommend a
3rd party implementation and simply shipping an adaptor is always a trust thing .. but as long as
the license is ok .. worst case you can always fork later
2011-11-23 17:55:31 Symfony2 of course has close relations to assetic, monolog,
twig, doctrine, propel etc authors
2011-11-23 17:55:34 <intiilapa> but I agree with jurians that at this time we don't have
l18n component before beta4 or 5... and Locale need to be rewrite to solve performance of ZF1
2011-11-23 17:55:35 <ralphschindler> hey lsmith i think we can continue this in the zftalk.2
room (its a good conversation to have) - but want to wrap up this meeting as per the agenda items
within the next 6 mins
2011-11-23 17:55:50 sound ok?
2011-11-23 17:55:53 <lsmith> yes
2011-11-23 17:57:09 <ralphschindler> so, to summarize the last question: cache and log need
to have a clear list of what goes in beta2 and beta3, and a timeline associated (i can write that up
for the mailing list), i18n needs to have the same but from thomas, and his willingness to work with
the community on syncing up development and timelines- +1 if that covers it
2011-11-23 17:57:36 did i leave anything out?
2011-11-23 17:57:36 <jurians> +1
2011-11-23 17:57:37 <EvanDotPro> +1
2011-11-23 17:58:08 <ezimuel> +1
2011-11-23 17:58:18 <intiilapa> yes
2011-11-23 17:58:56 <ralphschindler> alrighty, ill post the meeting recap, and get the
initial mails out to solicit the cache+log status
2011-11-23 17:59:05 does anyone have a motion to adjourn the meeting?
2011-11-23 18:00:38 <jurians> SpiffyJr is a bit late lol
2011-11-23 18:00:50 <ralphschindler> meeting adjourned
2011-11-23 18:05:56 <rdohms> oh great.... i missed the meeting .. damn you distracted